Sin City

[triskellian]

I think that's the first time I've walked out of a cinema during a film and not gone back. I made it as far as the bit where Elijah Wood is tied to a tree with the stumps of his limbs oozing blood, and a dog is summoned to eat him alive before deciding that, no, I really wasn't enjoying this, and the gorgeous design in no way made up for the content. This morning I still have a nasty taste in my brain.

I'm trying to work out how Sin City's relentless, vicious violence is worse than that of Kill Bill, which I liked. It may be something to do with the constant nudity and helplessness of all the women and the fact that even the one woman [in the part I saw] who stood up for herself ended up knocked unconscious by the hero 'for her own protection'; it may be something to do with the fact that none of the characters seemed in any way human or real. It may be simply that the section I saw contained several vignettes which were insufficiently linked and none of which made me care what happened next. Which is a shame, 'cos I usually like the interlinked vignette form.

But on the upside, the film may have distracted me from the lure of a permanent account and 100 icons and therefore saved me $150. The fact that the upside of Sin City is that I've got 50 icons less than I might have is probably as big an indicator of my opinion as the fact that I walked out.

Comments

[secretrebel.livejournal.com]

Urghhh. That sounds nasty. Did your other companions stay for the whole thing then?

I hope the sausage restaurant was up to scratch. I so want to go there some time. You musn't go a third time without me!

[bibliogirl.livejournal.com]

S'odd, I really enjoyed Sin City but had little interest in seeing Kill Bill -- in fact I found the medical scenes in Master and Commander much more disturbing than the violence in SC. Horses for courses...

[waistcoatmark.livejournal.com]

Having seen the reviews at rottentomatoes, it seems that everyone who dislikes it, dislikes it because of misogyny and/or violence.

Which given that it's based on a series of very violent and arguably misogynistic comics is possibly a tad unfair.

That "arguably" comes from the fact that the proportions of "pathetic" to "hard" characters are roughly the same for men and women(*). However I myust admit the proportions of "sensibly dressed" to "scantily dressed" do vary wildly between the genders, and none of the women appear to be older that 30.

Not that I've seen the film yet, but I have read the comics, and everything I've seen/heard indicates that the film is _very_ close to the comics.

(*) the first story, involving Marv and the lack of limbs you mention, is a little poor in that respect. That aspect gets better in later stories, the levels of violence however stay roughly the same.

[triskellian]

The others stayed. And the sausages were yummy; I shall endeavour to take you next time ;-)

[al-fruitbat.livejournal.com]

I found it exhilerating and exciting precisely because almost anything could happen in that world. When Dwight was holding the razor to the guy's face/eye in the bathroom, I was transfixed because I really didn't know what was going to happen...

[triskellian]

Which given that it's based on a series of very violent and arguably misogynistic comics is possibly a tad unfair.
I don't think it is unfair. Of course, it's not surprising* that the film is violent and arguably misogynistic if that's what the comics are like, but that doesn't stop those being valid reasons to dislike the film. Most of the people watching the film, me included, won't have read the comics. Many probably won't even have heard of the comics.

*Well, actually it is surprising if the film adaptation managed to faithfully reproduce the spirit of the comics, but YKWIM ;-)

But it wasn't the violence or misogyny per se that bothered me (and I was assured by my companions that it improved on the latter point), which is sort of why I'm interested in recording what I thought about it. I guess it's to do with the lack of humanity anywhere in the film...

[hearthfire.livejournal.com]

Having also seen it and concluded that it wasn't actually very good, despite some of it being really pretty, I came to the conclusion that due to being faithful to the comic the characters were a bit two dimensional and it was hard to develop any empathy for them. Perhaps this is why other fims based on comics haven't stuck so rigidly to the original in an attempt to but more "flesh" on the characters. (And then been criticised for not being enough like the comic)
It was very Tarentino though sadly not up to his usual standard.

[sea-of-flame.livejournal.com]

According to those who've read the comics, it's virtually frame for frame accurate.

I must admit, I went into it not having read them, but knowing very much the style/genre they were written in, and having heard a lot of 'aaargh, mysogyny and violence!' from across the pond already (and knowing that you don't get fluffy bunnies bouncing across tellytubby fields when you go to see an 18) - so I guess I was prepared for it.

It was very well done visually. Not sure I *liked* it as such in terms of plot, but from a technical perspective, compared to a lot of the sloppy zoom-around-til-you-feel-sick camerawork in other films at the moment, it was in a completely different league.

[smiorgan.livejournal.com]

Sin City wasn't a Tarantino film.

[liriselei.livejournal.com]

Perhaps this is why other films based on comics haven't stuck so rigidly to the original in an attempt to put more "flesh" on the characters.

though in some cases (e.g. C*nst*nt*ne - mmm, Tilda Swinton... - & C*tw*m*n) the characters end up being a lot more 2D in the films than they are in the comics.

can't opine on Sin City yet myself, as i'm going to see it this evening...

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

Which given that it's based on a series of very violent and arguably misogynistic comics is possibly a tad unfair.

Why is that unfair? Just because it lives down to one's expectations doesn't mean the criticism is invalid. If I said "I thought that X film was going to be crap, and lo and behold it is," you wouldn't say that was unfair, would you? (Or would you?)

You might well say "In that case why did you go and see it," which would be fair enough -- it's clearly daft to go to a film in the expectation of not enjoying it. And in the case of Sin City I'm not planning to see it, for that reason.

[secondhand-rick.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to work out how Sin City's relentless, vicious violence is worse than that of Kill Bill, which I liked.

Ah, that'd be your problem then, having liked Kill Bill which is a near perfect demonstration of what happens when someone becomes so famous that they can't be edited¹.

As two half-films Kill Bill was a dreadful piece of masturbation, though I'll happily admit that it was an ok collection of 'cool' episodes and cinematic gimics. But then that's one of the two things Quentin's good at; dialogue and doing cool shit. He should really be a proper script-writer's assistant.

[secondhand-rick.livejournal.com]

[1] - There is no footnote.

[kauket.livejournal.com]

The direction, the use of black and white and splashes of colour, the general gist of the scripting and the soundtrack were fantastic.

The violence, and I am usually ok with violence, was too much for me, and by the end I was bored of the constant nastiness. And whilst I liked the overall structure, the plot seemed pretty weak.

I didn't have a problem with the stereotyping of the women, I expected that, and in many ways the guys were as stereotyped as the women as all being violent murderous bastards.

I wouldn't watch it again, but I'm glad I've seen it. But I do wonder where we go from here in terms of violence in films. There was a day when films like Res Dogs weren't released on video because of the violence (although that may have been Tarentino's choice, I don't remember), but now we can see really graphic and unpleasent violence and torture, constantly, for 2 hours at the cinema. Where can Hollywood now go to shock the audience even more?

[ar-gemlad.livejournal.com]

One scene was apparently directed by Tarantino. Don't know which one.

[hearthfire.livejournal.com]

Credited as executive director or something similar I believe

[cardinalsin.livejournal.com]

Where can Hollywood now go to shock the audience even more?

Butlins?

[cuthbertcross.livejournal.com]

Well, I've got the comics, which as has been pointed out, were adapted image-for-image in places, and the dialogue was virtually untouched too. The only thing not in the comics (I think) was the little scene in the lift right at the end, which I presume was added to give a sense of circularity to the film (and I quite like that, though triskellian won't appreciate that having left!)

I really enjoyed the film, but I *knew* I would be getting superreal violence transcending all laws of physical reality in the name of hard-boiled schick. I also primed dr_bob along the lines of " well, it's stylish, and arty, and there's no good guys in the entire thing, and it's not *meant* to be realistic", and he enjoyed it too, despite not being into movie violence usually.

I think this is a film you're only likely to enjoy if you know what you're getting in advance, or have experience of the graphic novels (in which the artwork makes you forgive much of the 2 dimensionness of the characters.)

[triskellian]

I *knew* I would be getting superreal violence transcending all laws of physical reality in the name of hard-boiled schick
Well, see, this is the thing. So did I, and that stuff doesn't usually bother me (realistic violence bothers me more, but this clearly wasn't).

But I do tend to demand a degree of realism in characters, and I don't think there was any - I just didn't care about any of them, or anything that was happening to them.

[triskellian]

Now that would be horrible.

[frax.livejournal.com]

I can empathise with that especially in books - the main cause of me failing to finish a book is when I care so little about the main characters I can't be bothered to find out what happens to them.

[bateleur.livejournal.com]

FWIW I'm not bothered by pretty much any kind of nastiness in films or any other media, but I don't plan to see Sin City because I find that kind of thing pointless.

If I'm going to watch someone being eaten alive it'd better be because they stole fire from the gods. It's like the TYPING IN ALL CAPS of the film world - unless there's a sufficiently good reason, it's just a bit sad.

[al-fruitbat.livejournal.com]

Hm. It's a nasty end for a nasty character who mouseover for spoiler.

[http://users.livejournal.com/elle_/]

thats a really nifty trick... the mouseover thingy, that is.

im so easily amused! :)

[verlaine.livejournal.com]

Sin City (books and film) is an exercise in taking noir as far as it can possibly go - hence the preponderance of casual violence and warped chivalry/misogyny. I like it as an exercise, but I don't like the way it seems to have become a franchise and thus an end in itself.

[leathellin.livejournal.com]

The women were very stereotyped but the women in Old Town certainly weren't helpless.
Especially not Miho...
But if you walked out earlier you won't have seen that bit.

Yes the violence is disturbing.

[a-llusive.livejournal.com]

I decided this was no bad thing. Violence that extreme should be disturbing. I haven't seen Kill Bill but maybe that's more wrong for being more 'fun'. Someone told me that there are over 80 dismemberments in one fight scene in KB.

accasha and I stayed for the whole thing and I didn't find it relentlessly misogynistic. The portrayals of both men and women were highly stylised and conformed to (graphic novel) genre stereotypes.

I hadn't read any of the hardcopy/graphic novels, though I'd seen a few pages, so I wasn't prepared for the content.

When I came out I felt stunned, stupefied. Wasn't sure I was glad I'd seen it or not, but I did feel that it was good, in that they'd produced it well and clearly achieved the effect/movie they were aiming for. I was surprised that it has been marketed in quite the way it has been as people not expecting the horror are in for a shock. (No , I wouldn't describe it as a horror movie, it's more effectively horrifying than any film in that genre I've seen.)

The mild nausea had passed by this morning and it hasn't inspired any nightmares yet.

I didn't notice any walkouts at the showing I went to, but I know of others who watched couples bail during it. Those already wanting to see it probably should, I wouldn't recommend it who anyone who isn't already interested.

Humanity

[a-llusive.livejournal.com]

Um, there are signs of humaity later. accasha was down on it for being entirely humourless, but again I think that comes from the comics.

Humanity

[a-llusive.livejournal.com]

Um, there are signs of humanity later. accasha was down on it for being entirely humourless, but again I think that comes from the comics.

[a-llusive.livejournal.com]

I'd be really surprised if they make anything like this again.

Anything similar would either be dire or naff due to oversimilarity/being stuffed up. They were very fortunate to get the right cast and the have a team which achieved the right balance this time.

Also, that would bring up the possibility of Sandman films, which I never want to see.

[onebyone.livejournal.com]

Sin City (books and film) is an exercise in taking noir as far as it can possibly go - hence the preponderance of casual violence and warped chivalry/misogyny.

In the sense that the Great Purge was an exercise in taking authoritarianism as far as it can possibly go, hence the preponderance of executions?

I haven't read the comics, so this isn't a rhetorical question - is there actually any reason for the casual violence and misogyny, or is the exercise to glorify it as far as Miller can get away with? Is this just "hey, people might quite enjoy being immersed in casual violence and misogyny for a coupla hours, since they're not really allowed to do it in real life any more, 'cepting in Mississippi", or is there a genuine payoff?

Hey, I have a new picture quiz idea! "Postmodernism or Pornography?". All you have to do is choose the correct little tickybox - is the author satirising something or other in a terribly clever way that utterly, like, blows our preconceptions of his medium, or is he just getting his rocks off?

[dr-bob.livejournal.com]

If I'm going to watch someone being eaten alive

Sorry. You don't get to watch. And, as al_fruitbat pointed out, it's appropriate, if sick.

Re: Humanity

[liriselei.livejournal.com]

accasha was down on it for being entirely humourless

she was ? there were several moments when i went to see it last night where pretty much the entire cinema was laughing out loud !

though admittedly some of that was more at the dialogue than with it...

[markbanang.livejournal.com]

Well there's plenty of material left in the comics. Sin City 2 is already in pre-production and Sin City 3 has been announced.

Sorry you couldn't stomach it Liz, the Violence is pretty nasty, especially the way Marv dealt with Kevin, but it didn't strike me as being any worse than the average Tarantino movie. In many ways, the comic book, noir feel of the film made the violence seem less real for me.

I had far less compassion or interest in the characters in Kill Bill than I has for those in Sin City. The first vignette (called "The customer is always right" apparently) immediately set the scene for the film. Hartigan was easily recognisable as the hard bitten cop who would do anything for the dame (in this case a 12 year old girl he'd never met before). Marv was violent, but with a purpose. He was monstrous, but only to those who were monstrous themselves. Kevins end was poetic justice given what he'd done to his victims, and if anyone else had tried to come between him and his justice, they would have been slapped down too.

I think that the weakest performance was Jessica Alba, she was fine up on stage, but didn't look anything like the young Nancy and didn't really seem to settle into the role. Some of her conversations were rather stilted and she seemed uncomfortable.

Like many others, I hadn't read the comics, so I had no pre-conceptions about the stories. Even so, it was obvious where Becky should have died (I was right to think that she was supposed to die in the shootout) but it was forgivable for her death to be put off until the final scene (off camera). The film was already given a rounded off feel by the fact that the Hartigan & Nancy story was split between then and now, first and last segments.

I hope the nasty taste in your brain has gone now Liz,

Take care,

Mark..........