Pronouns

[triskellian]

I'm writing about a man who is physically made into a woman, a woman who thinks she's a man, and a man who lives as a woman, and having great problems with pronouns. And names, as two of the above possess both a male and a female name. If I try hard enough, I can make up my entire word count with 'his/her' and similar constructions.

Comments

[cardinalsin.livejournal.com]

Sounds like fun.

You could (I think) solve this with perspectives. When the action is seen from inside the person's head they would in all cases be referred to as he (with the possible exception of the last one). Taken on an outside view, they would be referred to as they appear. Though, I can see where there would be confusing perspectives that would return to the original problem!

[triskellian]

Yeah, I'm trying to do that. Where it becomes difficult (well, one of the places it becomes difficult ;-) is with man-made-into-woman, because she ends the book feeling like a woman, so it's mostly shades of grey. And the whole essay is about the relationship between how they feel and how they look, so there are grey areas there, too ;-)

[onebyone.livejournal.com]

In these cases, people reveal something about their own attitudes to gender definitions by what pronouns they use. Similarly, any kind of usage or style guide on the subject will depend on the attitudes of the author.

So - what are you giving away by your usage, and is it the impression you want to give to your examiners?

[triskellian]

:-)

I did think of that!

The whole point of this thing is that gender's one big grey area and it's not necessarily related to body or appearance, or at least, not in the ways we expect... So I'm aiming for the impression of open-mindedness, and most especially the impression of having paid attention in class and understood the problems with the grey areas ;-)

So what I'm doing is roughly this:
With the man-who-becomes-a-woman, I'm using 'he' for things that just apply before the op, 'she' for purely physical things after the op, 'she' for the very end (by which time (s)he has pretty much become a woman mentally as well), and male/female formations for everything else.

With the woman-who-thinks-she's-a-man, it's harder. For the very end, after the revelation has been revealed (since she accepts her female status pretty much immediately), I'm using 'she'. For bits relating to assertion of masculinity, I think I'm mostly using 'he', and otherwise going for male/female formations again.

With the man-living-as-a-woman, I'm mostly just using the name, cos this is the one with only one name, but, again, I'm going for male/female formations otherwise.

So. What does that tell you about my attitudes?

[onebyone.livejournal.com]

In narrative or editorial mode, I'd use "she" for the man living as a woman, for the same reason that if someone told me he'd changed his name I'd generally use the new one.

For the woman-who-thinks-she's-a-man, I think if possible I'd deliberately copy the forms used by the author of the novel. But then if it's the novel I think it is, that might just be sarcasm on my part.

So. What does that tell you about my attitudes?

Well, comparing your usage to mine, I think it tells me that you're going out of your way to make it clear that you're undecided on the issue. ;-)

[waistcoatmark.livejournal.com]

In many cases you can cheat, and use "they" instead of "he", "she" or "he/she" etc.

[triskellian]

Ah, but that's icky, and more usually used for people where you don't know their sex, rather than people whose sex you do know, but it's complicated ;-)

And it's grammatically dubious-at-least, which might be a problem for an English course ;-)

[secretrebel.livejournal.com]

I'd slightly disagree... 'They' can be used in a passive tense. But with your specific essay I admit I wouldn't advise it.

Perhaps it's time to experience the delights of gender non-specific pronouns. What would that tell your examiners?

Oooh, another thought. It's a bit late for this but could you do any kind of cont5rast or compare with 'Orlando' by Virginia Wolf? That's another gender-swapping character. Just an idea.

[triskellian]

What would that tell your examiners?
Oh god. I'm not sure if I'd have to explain them or not. Possibly to one and not to the other. But I'm not interested in creating trouble for the people marking my essay - probably not conducive to a good mark ;-)

Orlando - although I own it and mean to read it eventually - wouldn't work 'cos of being by a modernist. Although I guess I could've done something interesting around exemplifying postmodernism by contrast with what went before. But anyway, I don't think it's possible to read a book and rewrite the essay in the free time I have between now and 4pm on Friday ;-)

The gates of perception

[uitlander]

I suppose the key point here is when you percieve the gender 'switch' to take place. Does it happen when each of your characters first perceives of themselves as the other gender, when the start to acknowledge it to themselves and/or friends/family, when they seek/start treatment, when the undergo surgery, or at some arbitray point when you think they can 'pass'. My guess is that such things do not happen overnight, but are a gradual process, at least in the eyes of onlookers.

Re: The gates of perception

[triskellian]

It's entirely a gradual process for one (man made into woman), which is where most of the problems are occuring, although even there, pre-op, he's definitely a he, because the op is forced.

With woman who thinks she's a man, through most of the book there's only one person who knows she's a man, and once the secret is out, she herself adapts pretty immediately, but it's still problematic before then. As far as he, and most of the other characters are concerned, he's a bloke, but physically he's not, and the fact that he 'switches' so quickly suggests that the proper reading is 'he's really a girl, he was just wrong', so should I have been saying 'she' all along?

The third one (man living as woman - successfully, I should've added earlier) is tricky simply because we know next-to-nothing about the character's past, self-perception etc. Is he really TV or TS? We have little idea...

Re: The gates of perception

[triskellian]

D'oh. There's a missing 'not' in there somewhere.

[jennyh.livejournal.com]

General politness says your refer to them as whatever thay want to be refered to as.
Doing otherwise indicates you disregard there view and take it upon yourself to judge for your self. Usally this rejudgment is based on history and looks and indicates narrow thinking. Unless the person in question really is obviosly deluded.

[onebyone.livejournal.com]

General politness says your refer to them as whatever thay want to be refered to as.

They're fictional characters.

[bateleur.livejournal.com]

They're fictional characters.

So much the better - that way if they have any preferences a quick read will reveal them and much embarassment is avoided all round.

[triskellian]

Oh, I know how I'd refer to them if I met them, that's much easier ;-) it does in fact fit in broadly with their own preferences:
Man-who-becomes-a-woman would be 'he' until the op and 'she' after (because, while still feeling like a man, she refers to herself as a woman afterwards), woman-who-thinks-she's-a-man would be 'he' until the revelation and 'she' after, and man-living-as-woman would be 'she' except for towards the end of his life, when he marries man-who-becomes-a-woman (post op) and gets her pregnant.

Ooh, isn't this fun? ;-)

[jennyh.livejournal.com]

I'm Curiouse - what is the motivation for these people to have a sex change? The only group of people i know of that would want to are transexuls who generally consider themselves to be the gender of "prefrance" before as well as after after the change. From what you describe, i asume there is some other motivation . . . . maybe like the guy/lady in "ace venturer -pet detective" who wanted revenge? Or are they just really really boared? (I don't think i could ever be that bored myself)

[triskellian]

These questions have actually been answered elsewhere in the thread, but here goes ;-)

All three are characters in works of postmodernist fiction (which I'm currently writing an essay about), therefore their motivations aren't necessarily those of you or I, but...

Man-who-becomes-a-woman is subject to a forced sex change, so his motivation is coming to terms with the new body he has had inflicted on him.

Woman-who-thinks-she's-a-man is the subject of a bizarre experiment by her father in the nature/nurture vein.

Man-living-as-woman is the only one like 'real' people - he's just either a transvestite or a pre-op transexual (we don't really know which).

Re:

[jennyh.livejournal.com]

Oh nice dad! Soulds like some seriously messed up people!

Probebly exaples of each in real life. The was a baby boy that was given a sex change soon after burth. They grew up with horendus identity problems - until they learned the truth - and had another sex change. After the 2nd - they where much happer.

Its a funny old world.